Dublin SaaS Meetup #1 – Panel Talk on Content Marketing

so yeah for the purpose of this panel talk you know obviously the theme of the evening is content marketing and I'll be your moderator for just a few questions just to kind of kick it off because we want to make this you know interactive so hopefully you've got some questions for our esteemed panel guess afterwards but let's do I guess first of all a round of introductions and we'll start with you did introduce yourself beginning John but so very quick quick one okay i'm john collins i'm the managing editor here at intercom and obviously contents been a big thing for us I look after blog which gets quite a lot of traffic watch hundreds of thousands of people every salon and our podcast which is kind of a new initiative first and books is obviously other big thing for us and my background is I worked in print and dead trees and all that kind of stuff for Jesus a long time and made transition about a year and a half go to software so okay Hayden I'm des Martin I head up the growth team of Qualtrics and I might just take a step back and growth is one of these words that had a lot of impact and then marketing people got their hands on it and it started to get a little bit i legit unfortunately and what growth means in the Qualtrics context is I said over a combination of marketing demand generation and actually the sales the the opportunity development so I actually own a number so I own up kind of a certain amount of pipeline generated each quarter so it's a way we find of making sure that all the the spend we're putting into to content and to marketing is actually directly attributable something so making it measurable and yeah so that's a little bit about I suppose Qualtrics and on the content side I've been in the chair has had a growth for Qualtrics aamir for about about 9 months and we're still getting the content machinery open running and we're doing a refresh on elements of our site and things that we're doing and and one of the things that we're really focused on from a Content point of view is really using data similar to what the guys at the newsroom in dune to really bring forward really new and fresh insights and we're very lucky that we have a platform that enables us to survey people right around the world and gather really really good fresh insights so it's got a powerful tool to have and but just to to kind of maybe take a step back and give an insight into maybe play the other foot on the whole content so the things and Qualtrics is in the unicorn Club which is again another kind of mangled and overused word and but Qualtrics got to be a billion dollar value company without doing any content but they're putting any Content ID it's a SAS company that's had a huge success and huge growth trajectory and they just bypass content completely and so I think it's important that people actually ask the question what are we trying to achieve content can amplify it content can be a really important part of it and i think it's become a very important area for getting an edge not for doing me too but for may be getting an edge and but it's it's definitely not for everybody that would be my kind of extended intro hey I met I do I run the content at a small company in Berlin called chart mogul char mogul is a SAS analytics platform so we give analytics there's specific for subscription and SAS businesses for us and we're definitely not a billion-dollar company yet but content is a really big part of marketing strategy it's the biggest part of a marketing strategy I run our blog we do we do things we run a lot of experiments with our content I think we've been very successful with some parts of it definitely some parts less but we yeah I guess I my background is actually in product and engineering so I feel like I have a slightly different perspective i've only been been doing this this whole content game for about a year now and i came into it and was kind of overwhelmed with the amount of people there shouting very loud in this space so for me the problem of tackling you know how do we have a voice and how do we stand out in amongst this this sea of people is something that's quite interest to me yeah Thank You ed and also thanks for flying over from Berlin for this so yeah just kick off with the first question so it's Brian your opinion is it important for SAS businesses to implement the content marketing strategy early on obviously does you you probably said it's not important so let's not as des and but yeah ed good Mike yeah so for us I I think it was important for a few reasons partly because as as a small start-up with you know a limited amount of funding i think it's it's a very useful way to project your presence in a much bigger way on the web so it's it's a way to be seen as a much bigger entity than you are so you can as a one-man content team have still you know a reasonably large presence on the web and you can get get your name out there and much more cost-effective ways than then other channels might have so i think the other thing is you can achieve a much better ROI than than other channels and again for for a company with reasonably limited budget investing in content is a good way to really gain some subtraction and appearance in the market before you can really start spending in in other channels i think as well it takes a bit of time to to really spin up the condom machine you need to find your groove and and find where you can can add value i think it's very easy to obviously go in the same direction as everybody else but it's certainly for me it's taken some time to kind of step back a bit and say okay yeah that so these guys are doing this this seems to be working quite well maybe we can maybe we can find some space here that we can actually grow in ourselves without as we mentioned before without having this big kind of arms race and and directly competing with others so yeah for us it's it's been really important and I think it will continue to be important for the foreseeable future ok there's the control room yes and as I should it kind of preface the Qualtrics tori is probably quite unique in what they manage to achieve and content is is super important and any sass startup beginning is going to be looking at the whole kind of digital marketing what are we going to do from a whole range of areas SEO social email at the core of all of that is the message and that's the content so it is really important I'm so just to maybe cut up it in and again maybe 22 also kind of practices and content as connor was pointing at earlier can deliver leads and can deliver and you know a pipeline ultimately to to your sales teams but you need to make sure that the content being produced is supporting those sales teams and that sales and content need to work together and particularly in the SAS environment and unless you've got some sort of a freemium model or people upgrade and kind of like a drop box but even drop box are investing very heavily in sales people as well nice so you've got to make sure and that you're kind of balancing those things I and but but content is it's definitely important and push you've got to have an edge there's nothing worse than kind of being in me to saying a little bit of the same or a weaker version of what your competitors are saying so I'm I'm a big believer in a kind of quality over quantity and making sure that that what you're saying I will really resonate even if it's a small number of people and it really moves the needle with those small number of people that's way better than than just kind of journal journalism start approach mmm as well just get the background in terms of intercom like content I don't like I won't actually say content marketing because I'm not big keen on that term but I get to that it's like what content but was basically the way educomp got attention and for the first two and a half years there was no there was no other sales marketing activity the only other thing we had was like a VIP customer support program so like that made sure that word America was really really strong but content played such a big role in terms of getting the message out there in terms of just getting the name right there the news about the product I mean and the guys actually managed to get like new product announcements to the top of hacker news and by not writing about oh we've got a new product out and it does this but actually going hey marketing is broken and this is why we think it's broken and that's why we invented this product and so I think good content and ballsy kind of content content that actually can kind of such a it can just work in so many ways and I suppose that the reason I kind of push back a little against the content marketing term is that I think people sometimes think of it too much just as demand gen and think about it as like this is a way we're going to you know feed the top of the funnel and we've had like designers who literally up sticks and moved here from other places in Europe after reading something on our blog and like I start every 10 as a start-up like hiring people and getting people to take a chance in you and believe in what you're doing is so hard little easier obviously now for people like Dez when this billion-dollar valuation but for the rest of us you know you're constantly trying to get the best people you can so like I think people you know just if you can't see just think about it as marketing I think you can you get you can do it then do you think I'd say as well it was just start early because quickly the kind of strategy weird in which is like evergreen content not doing the kind of newsy stuff which I think Connor has been successful at but content that has a long life it's actually it's one of the few forms of marketing that does have compounding returns you know that doesn't diminish over time because people just get sick of seeing it and put it takes time to dial it up you can't like kind of diary hey next week I'm going to have a brain flash and I'm going to write a post called the dribble ization of design that is going to literally deliver you know hundreds of thousands of page views over the next three years I mean that kind of stuff you can't turn it on like other cause it forms of marketing so start early okay thanks guys so something I've been seeing hearing a lot from a lot of influences and top blogs in the industry is about I guess the trend of content marketing and transparency in an even radical transparency so right pretty much you know just opening up the broken you know the whole company the profits or you know whatever so for instance upward price curve and buffer and hitting shower and neil patel these guys and they kind of preach you know transparency is this theme so you know is this a strategy that everyone should adopt nope hey no i mean i think yeah i bet you just kind of view transparency biometrics do as well which cook yeah come we have a lot of time for buffer do it i mean the question whatever is how much value is there in knowing how much someone is being paid and buffer who's like probably based in South Dakota and like you know it's heading up their customer success problem like I mean I kind of admire their like trying to do something differently but I don't like just putting everything out there all your accounts all your information I just don't you know the journalists amigos y it's great because just you know curiosity kind of have a like and i have looked around those companies accounts because you're just curious but how much value does like for safer intercom to see you know like what they're being paid what their finances are i don't know i don't i don't know so you think it's it's not useful i think it's much more useful to say i'd love to know like hi buffer like built up their audience and stuff and they and they do share that kind of information that blog and i think that kind of stuff is much more useful because it's it's transferable and it's it's relevant to other companies so i would say no and yeah no I think radical transparency is a way to run a company and there's a whole kind of mindset and there's a whole kind of philosophy around how people would like to run their company i'm making a transparent for their employees and their customers and doing away with kind of hierarchical structures that's that's a philosophy of how you run a company and it can be extended and it can be brought to the public through your content but it's not a content strategy like to both something on to get some quick views and we piss off all our staff and we'll know our customers are will annoy you know it that doesn't it's a philosophy if it runs really really deep all the way through maybe that's something you want to extend but but am I think maybe this goes back to great content is an extension of the personality of the company of the brand of the ethos of of and what it stands for you know the simon Sinek talk on Ted one of the more popular ones people don't buy what you do they buy why you do it and I think if you get the content really really nailed if you really hit home and and you go beyond you know talking about your own product and a navel gazing and talking internally and which i think the intercon blog does actually really well you guys under the bringing in an audience and earned them you know speaking to to to kind of a real you know resonant and points that really resonate and well i was actually that's why i was trying to cover my ass on that one backtrack now a joke and so i think that's that's kind of my my toppings worth on a radical transparency good way to run a company if you're that way inclined or if you've got that sort of philosophy and but content is really about bringing your company and your brand and your employees and and everything you do to life and that people want to be involved people want when they read your content they want to be part of what you're what you're selling what your company is and what your brand is you know yeah i think it's interesting and I and I admire what what guys like buffer doing I think that stuff stephanie interesting and I saw a great post i think it was only last week about how there i think that traffic had dropped substantially and they were really digging into that and i found that really interesting as a content strategy i think i think that it's fine that they're trying to find a way to tell a story i guess and and to stand out a little bit and i think that's just one way that you that you could tell a story I think there's also other ways you can do it as well though it's it's something we look at a chart mogul is to try and step back and say okay how can we tell a story that's engaging and and that stands out from what everyone else is doing and for us I think that that might be related to our customers telling stories about how our customers use our product we have a great advantage that you know all of our customers are so diverse in terms of what their business looks like and how they run it this might be something we can do that but I think yeah radical transparency it's yeah like you said it's not so much a Content thing it's I feel like it was maybe a little bit of an attention grab that in some ways worked in in the short term I don't know how it affects how they run their business but I think you got to tell a story okay thank you and so I think we're probably in agreement that creating great content is a good idea you know strategically to help you you grow I guess you're unique visitors but why is creating great content not enough let's start with that you got the night huh well so you can create great content and you can send people your site in the hope that at some point when they need your solution they think of your brand right it's and and that's that's one thing i think that is still like a massive mistake with with content marketing is that you you write content you send people to your site and then you have a sign up button somewhere on that page when they're reading the article and they sign up and then your content has like a conversion rate and that's I know it's been talked about so much so that's not really how content works but I think a lot of people still have that mindset I think contents not enough because you you've got to have a the base of everything is having a product that works and that is compelling for people right if you know you can have the best content in the world for a product that just doesn't resonate with with its target audience and you're still not going to get a meaningful amount of signups yeah it just comes back to the this this root thing of content and and content marketing in general always has to implement your product and your business it's never a it's never a thing by itself it's never a standalone entity and so I think with a with content m the best way to describe this you know distribution is so important like content in of itself and consider in a silo and cannot be seen by the right people or won't reach them at the right time and or won't have the right impact if you're not really careful about who you're targeting and and that they're actually engaging with it at the right time excuse me and so there's a there's a there's a laser focus on the right people and timeliness are so important and and oftentimes really good content is often bypassed for a poor quality content which gets more exposure because it rides that timeliness and it kind of captures the did the particular channel at the right time and oftentimes kind of sneaks ahead and so I think that would be kind of pretty important considerations yeah kind of actually it's good point ed made and something we very much believe in it's like good content as to marry up with your product like intercom very much a product driven company so for instance we believe you know good marketing is but sending the right people the right message at the right time and guess what we have a product that does that put their nuts also kind of what we write about on our blog so it's very much you know you're not going to come to the blog or read any of our books and read stuff and go wow that's really interesting and then use the product and go why they've got this like really junky horrible UI and it's like you know doesn't do any of the things they talked about and so I think actually you know beyond the stuff like distribution and pay distribution all that kind of good stuff that I think it's like you know it's pretty well documented out there I think I won't think that a lot of people miss is that really the content they produced just doesn't it isn't reflected in the rest of the company okay so if you go great content and a terrible business known as well just give up well if you've got great marketing and terrible is generally unless you're well actually is Microsoft's but yeah we can read it that bit out or not they might sponsor a future event okay so in your opinion I mean like I think what I hear mostly is that you know content marketing is a long-term game if we got a game and actually because it is such an you know long-term gown that most people actually give up to too early or a lot of people maybe not most but you know do you think it is only a long-term initiative until you get a sort of ROI well is there that strategy for you know quicker wins I think I saw some clues in Connors presentation but you know what are your thoughts in terms of quicker win some content marketing or is it just you know be prepared for the long haul em yeah i mean the as a start-up definitely it's kinda goes back to that whole program stuff of you know do stuff that doesn't scale so you know in the early days you have got you know let's face it you do have time and so you know like right those personal emails to people who will you know tweet your post or you know share your content whatever it is like i know a bunch of like influencers were very very positive towards intercom in the early days purely because it does known people reached out directly personally to these people and then you know that those people were happy too happy to share their content or going why this it's like you know this company they're really interesting opinions looks like they've got an interesting product so sure their stuff so i think absolutely if you're you know if you're thinking about how you're going to approach this just you know get every every reader every influencer do it one by one if necessary and you know because when you get to the stage where you know like when you want to want to start moving the needle n well then you need to start thinking about much more things like you know and paid paid distribution all that kind of stuff that you can't you can't you know you can't do it at that point and i think one of the points that camera which my panelists made earlier that good car 10 compounds over time that you know you'll have content that was put out months maybe years ago that is still delivering and that's that's something that you know is invaluable over time and the quick wins yes you can obviously have them and there's loads of examples of like the Dollar Shave Club they put out a video things explode seems like the best quick win of all time and but if you're banking on building a business on a quick win you're probably going to get let in and because you know it takes time to get the message to get the audience to get the channels to get everything compounded and put together so there's there's just definitely cases and you can be quite lucky and get those quick wins and one of the things just to maybe take it back two examples one of the things that we're doing at the moment is using our own product are using Qualtrics and we're surveying 5,000 people across Europe and we're getting a whole load of fresh data around em attitudes to work what people think of unemployment entrepreneurship a whole range of other topics across Europe and being able to extract loads of information from that so so if you take that one piece of research we can use it for press and peor and we can use it for reports which are used and in a kind of a whole range of different areas we can use it as kind of insights for social it can form the basis of different you know email outreach and a whole lot of things so if you think very carefully about content and you really you know find something that's really relevant and interesting for a particular audience not for everybody and but for the audience you want to target and there are ways to find something unique and different and stand out yeah I think quick wins are interesting right because you go to some social psy now like inbound org and you see the front page and it's all quick wins like every single thing there is a quick win people that want to sell you quick wins it's like five quick things you can do right now to increase your blog traffic by three thousand percent and people love that stuff but I think in terms of quick wins for content I think it's always an investment that you make and if you if you skimp on the the effort up front for quick wins your you're going to be left once the dust is settled in the same place that you were before and I think in my experience and and what we're doing right now is to really trying to make longer term investments in our content I think you need to experiment like I said before it's really important to to not you know you find one thing that works and the temptation is to stamp and repeat I think you can do small experiments as long as you can decide whether they work for you or not that that's fine but I don't know I just these this these quick when things just they don't do it for me you just gave me an idea for another quick win maybe I can ride tomorrow how attending SAS meetups improves improves your SAS life by 1000% so last question for me before I open to to the audience and look for some short answers here not nothing on the wrong answers but you know let's mix up and what are your content marketing hints and tips and let's look for like three tips each and john m three tips um I me be clear about what what you're doing wired in it so for instance like people ask us you know having very curious about the traffic traffic does matter we don't sell out and we sell software so like engaged readers far more important to us than like you know a million pageviews and so so be very clear about that like what matters and just write really something different in tenth Akande that you care about you know and it's just so much crap out there and where people just write about themselves and people aren't going to come to your blog to read about you as a company they going to come to the blogs to read something's gonna help them do their job better make their life better improve their sex life or whatever it might be but you know they're not intersect yeah your south slope they're not interested in you and enjoy and just have an opinion and again that's kind of stuff people want to come and read it maybe just to reiterate that last point like over time with content you're building an audience and like it's very easy and to to kind of scam the figures like you could write posts about justin bieber and you could absolutely blow your numbers up tomorrow but it's of no relevance and that's kind of an extreme example but you're building a relationship with people over a period of time that are willing to give up their time and their their their attention to come and engage with in your regular basis and that's where it becomes powerful the one offs rarely convert as well as that regular readership and people that are engaged and really ask yourself what you're trying to achieve I'm I've just seen a lot of people rush into content marketing because it's perceived as being kind of low barrier to entry it's going to cheap you can anybody can do is I'm and oftentimes companies just don't have a clear goal at the end like what are we doing I'm if we're just producing leads and many times the leads can be poor quality because haven't really thought it through or if we're if we're just working on a particular area and there can be there can be holes in it so think about how it fits in the overall strategy just as a kind of an overview is it is something that I think is pretty important and and yeah personality personality is really important to contact I'm and that means different things different companies it doesn't mean I'm you know the party Allen is Hawaiian shirt renting like that you know personality yeah personality can be lots of different things but but find that thing that that people you know I really associate with and want to be part of yep from a from a product perspective I like to think of my content as a product as well because I think it is and I think it has an experience and it leaves either a negative or a positive impression on the person that consumes it I think if you think of it that way and focus on giving people the best experience when they consume your content which means you know don't try to distract them with star while they're reading just give them the best experience and if your content is good quality they'll they'll think of you when they when they're looking for a solution and then I think the only other thing is sometimes it's good to just shut yourself away from all the other noise because I a Jedi don't think it guides you in the right direction at all I would just maybe shot yourself in a room and and think about how you can tell a story about what you're doing and if you do that you'll I think you'll end up cutting through a lot of the noise out there okay thanks guys so now that I guess this is your opportunity to ask questions to the panel so has anyone or does anyone want to kick this off this is easy I I'd love to know your views about paid distribution hey by pay distribution you mean things like out brain and all that kind of stuff and I think it I think I value if you know you get you get to a stage where gets harder to move the needle on things and I mean it it is but like that quick win industry though I think there are a lot of stuff right there that's very kind of spammy that's very low quality like you're basically buying an audience and it's like yesterday I somebody retweeted something we had no no he's got eighteen thousand followers and I checked out his bio and it was like his business was building up Twitter followers for you and you just like oh god I thought that stuff had gone away but it's still right there and so I certainly think and there are some good stuff we've done some experiments without brain and um and yet it will deliver certain amount of audience but I think you still need to build a core core audience before pay distribution will really really have much impact fear that's certainly our experience of it anyway M it is definitely place first um but I be very well looked and say it's it's a kind of a long-term strategy or something that you would have as a pillar of what you're doing and for for you know amplifying and setting something loose and in the early days it can be very tempting and to accelerate stuff even with the likes of Twitter or LinkedIn or different things like that and I'm kind of reluctant there's definitely like most the times that I've seen it there are there are winds and then it kinda plateaus and and what happens is people tend to throw more and more money into something that's plateauing and not really producing a big return or the return that justifies the expense I'm so yeah it has it has in certain areas the disa benefit and like targeting people with very kind of cleverly targeted remarketing ads on Twitter or on other platforms with a really laser focused you know message people you know that I've engaged with content previously or and being able to very you know cleverly say okay if we were able to get this person back for a third or fourth time with a very succinct message we know that's our sweet spot for converting somebody into X you can be kind of quite sharp about that but that's that's that the laser focus when you're kind of going we're just going to bid on you know a whole lot of really broad keywords and hope something sticks you usually waste your money when you do that something like that yeah we've we've experimented with a few things a child mogul and I think we would probably only do it if we knew that we could have like you said I laser-sharp focus we found some success in these in some paid campaigns on Twitter when we're for example targeting attendees of a conference or something like that that that's fine i think anything else can we can turn into a bit of a rabbit hole that you chase and we just don't have enough people or time to have somebody optimizing paid campaigns yeah just one last one right well I think of it one thing that can be quite useful in the content so it is look at like people that retweeted all of your competitors content and then target them with laser focused remarketing ads for very similar content and you know they're the kind of people that have retweeted and engaged with an exhibitor so those kind of things can work but in small bursts okay any other questions I think there could be a difficulty creating something that's known as torn our personality in your content especially when you're trying to write it can you give us any any insights into what torn and personality means of what having a brand voice means in content good question and different things to different people and so I suppose first of all you've got to know who your audience is and that's often quite hard that often takes a good bit of time in a bit of soul searching and particularly involving people senior up in the organization because it's really an extension of where the company is going so you've got to really understand and who you're you're trying to speak to and then a lot of things going to fall out of that once you're able to kind of amalgam a series of traits into the broad persona gets overused but amalgamated a series of traits that is common in the people you're trying to target and you start to get a clear idea of what will resonate with them um but that's kind of helps the tone of voice but then it really helps if you have you know kind of a quirky side you know we have a dog in our office in the you in the office over in the state's Barnaby and he's head of innovation and that's for the guys have nominated rumors but kind of quirky things like that but that flow through content and bring kind of a relatively kind of relaxed kind of fun site to some stuff which is like market research related that isn't isn't sexy and isn't you know you know it's not keeping people awake at night and I'd say it's interesting actually for us social is one area we haven't really done a huge amount on like we we also used social media to promote our other content but actually doing social media itself as a thing and but the one thing that's really resonated is when we tweet pictures or share pictures of like you know people from the company or stuff going on inside the company and I think of everyone speaks that like people want to know what's the personality like it's going on what do you like really and I think try to get that across in your content is is it's tough you know and the problem actually we have at the moment is our country was very much led from the top des and owned co-founders drove the content of the start des particularly in latter years and then I came I came on and now we've got a team of four people working on content and it kind of caught up on us very quickly that we set him up you know it was a small group and we were very easily able to communicate and talk about like this is the intercom way this is like this is what we would stay and this is how we would speak and and now we're actually very much quickly trying to catch up and kind of create this kind of voice and tone document and that's kind of an interesting thing to do when your emotion on your 180 people because you're certainly trying to go what is like what is the thing that that brings us all together here and put a minute it's to do it i think is it like there's a bunch of examples out there if you're interested in like how to establish voice no mail chimp act on it very successfully I mean newspapers have been doing it for years with stargates and stuff I mean you literally start off with thinking about like what are the things you believe in and you stand for and work down from there and so I think that's that's all I clear yeah I totally agree with with everything this we said I'll just add one thing which i think is engaging with people who engage with your content is really important as well so I think that can go a really long way towards giving your brand and giving your company a face if you can just show them that there's a real person here after stuff every today I'm not sure whether it's been written by a bot or a real person so if you can convince them that you're real you're going a long way too it's a kind of win um what else in questions know what in that case we hope will have gone yeah I've an antibiotic so if you don't fear for me so job this question is specifically for you how do you measure your success do you have to turn a certain amount of people into qualified leads or you know I just success versus budget of just curious whether um well I'm not gonna not gonna say too much about sort of the the internals of our marketing operation works but I mean I think most most companies would have you know a definition of like what a qualified ladies or what you know like how their formal works and but supposed point I was trying to make was that you know pay trees are really only important if you're selling ads because at the end of the day we could have like I could go tomorrow write a bunch of articles about like Apple watch or a bunch of other things like I know going to get like this sort of fly-by-night traffic not going to have any kind of real engagement and the numbers it look great but what's the point des famously made that comment about you know if you want to get engagement in your products you could just add Tetris to your calendar and you'll get great like levels of engagement but we'll add event for your product know and so you can notice game came the number so I think well we look at it he's just and are we building an audience that like of engaged people you think intercom or you know you know we know what we're talking about we have something interesting to say who sort of agree with our views on like support product management the actual jobs that are our products do and so that when they have an opportunity to buy or they have a need to buy a product in that space well the first thing they're going to kind of turn to is intercom and hopefully move a lot of them down the frontal and a lot quicker and even know was that just specifically for maybe even other question maybe this okay Joe me dude yeah you what the question was I got a judge in right when he said it's just for okay what a success look like em so I grew with John that like pageviews is a is a vanity metric as are you know Twitter fall or as are you know certain things like that and people can kind of get obsessed with with those things and as I mentioned at the start you know we're quite a transparent company and one of the things that you know I ultimately own a number for pipeline created from from all of the marketing activities that we do we engage in so I'm really that's that's where the book stops and ends I'm content is an important component of thats not the only part and it tends to be the glue between many different areas which is which is I suppose maybe amplifies its importance and but yeah ultimately i own a certain amount of pipeline created each quarter and content is a part of that yeah I I don't know it's it's such a hard thing to solve right how do you measure how successful your content is especially on a granular level we we have ways of tracking people and where their first touch point is and whether they come back for something else and whether they eventually sign up with us but to be honest I try not to focus on that stuff because I think it can distract you and I'm not sure how how accurate it can be a telling you what what to focus on so I just try and write good content and and I hope that it resonates with people okay I think on that note there's some cold beers with our names on and I just want to before that obviously say thank you to all of our speakers come on a Liam Nev who I don't think it's there anymore John ed and des animaux so thanks to the Spencer's tribal VC and of course in takan for hosting the event so yeah let's have some beers even though it's a school night and eat some cold pizza

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